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Talk:Timeline
Stingers Hey, good idea porting this over, as it's a very useful article! Just one minor comment, but I noticed that you've linked Stingers, however I'm not sure those were the name of the Brunnen-G attack craft, but simply the scorpion tail weapons on the backs, as the only mention is when Kai tells his pilots to deploy Stingers prior to firing on the Foreshadow during their initial attack run. For now I've just linked that page to a Stingers anchor where the Brunnen-G origins are mentioned. -- Haravikk 11:08, July 4, 2011 (UTC) :Yeah, I'm not sure about the name of their ships either. However, I think I have seen mentions in the fan-sites that are also calling them that. -- Bovineone 14:50, July 4, 2011 (UTC) :I don't believe that the ships were named onscreen in the series at all. They may have been named in scripts for I Worship His Shadow, Brizon or Brigadoom. In discussion with Bill Fleming, one of the creative producers of Lexx, in the context of Brigadoom, he referred to them as 'stinger ships.' I believe that 'Stingers' or 'Stinger ships' were the name that the production crew used for the craft. :Den Valdron, 06:59, July 5, 2011 (UTC) Minor corrections There are a number of non-canon things in this timeline, and a few minor interpretations that I don't think are completely correct, however it's generally a step forward. I think I may try to remove the non-canon references to events in "The Cluster (fanfic)", which was apparently never completed/released anyways according to Joules of Lexxplorations. There's also a claim that everyone on the prison transport ship was from B3K, which I think is wrong (Argon Protopi is from Orbital 5, Giggerota is from Boron-7). Are planet "Erika" and the "Erikans" also non-canon? I was also a little surprised that this timeline indicates Brizon/Mantrid might not actually be very old at all. Before seeing this timeline, I had assumed Brizon had actually created the life-extension technology used in Kai/Assassins and thus was at least two-thousand years old via his life extension devices, but perhaps I am wrong. Brizon had a Brunnen-G era moth (which would have been at least that old?). -- Bovineone 14:50, July 4, 2011 (UTC) :Definitely no on Erika, the prisoner's you've mentioned plus Zev and Thodin are the only ones mentioned, so only Zev from B3K, and Thodin of course from the Ostral-B pair. If anything the majority of the prisoners were from Ostral-B as Thodin had four or five others with him when he escaped, and another one got squashed while yelling at Stanley for being the arch-traitor. As for Brizon and Mantrid… I don't remember if Brizon identifies himself as creating Kai and the Divine Assassins, or just maintaining them? It's possible that another Bio-Vizier restored the Brunnen-G moth and Brizon just got a hold of it to experiment on or such. There are a few possibilities, but given how extreme both of them have become in extending their lives, I'd be more inclined to believe that they are, at least, several centuries old, but I can't think of a canon source to confirm. :Also, just wanted to note that the mention of the Lexx coming from Stanley's tooth being a mistake is untrue; Stanley was given the stolen plans in his tooth when they were stolen by the Ostral-B heretics (which he was a minor part of at the time). So the designs definitely originated with the Divine Order, were stolen, put in Stan's tooth to transport to Ostral-B (am I wrong in remembering that he may have only been carrying a copy of the plans as well, there may have been another set on their way via a different route). At this point the Lexx wasn't actually constructed until after Stan was captured and his copy of the plans were recovered. I really need to re-watch Stan's Trial to get more on the whole affair as I think it's the best source for most of it. -- Haravikk 15:23, July 4, 2011 (UTC) ::Can you create an article for the prisoner transport ship and list its known passenger manifest? -- Bovineone 15:27, July 4, 2011 (UTC) :::Done ;) -- Haravikk 16:15, July 4, 2011 (UTC) ::: :::I don't think that Brizon's possession of a Brunnen G era bug thingy is indicative of his age. The indications are that it was this leftover Brunnen G technology that lead to the Lexx, so Brizon was probably building them as part of his work in designing the Lexx. :::I don't know that any of the Bio Viziers would have been permitted life extension. The His Divine Shadows don't seem to me to be that tolerant of their underlings. They're more along the lines of absolute loyalty and then kill yourself. Certainly His Divine Shadow would not have tolerated potential rivals, or people to learn too much. And frankly, Mantrid and Brizon were the types who would have figured out a little too much. :::Also, although both were clearly in bad physical shape, neither of them seemed to have age related ailments. At least not aging we were familiar with. Rather, they appeared as late middle aged, but suffering from extreme syndromes. Mantrid a head with organs in a Jar. Brizon a guy who had to be plugged into someone elses organs to survive. :::Their ailments are either the result of power politics - His Divine Shadow working hoodoos to keep them under control or kill them, or Office politics - their rivals inflicting nasty tailored bio-viruses on them to screw them up and get a leg up. Given their stature, their respective conditions may have been inflicted on each other, explaining their hatred. :::Mantrid gives no indication of what his age might be. Brizon indicates that he was Mantrids mentor, and that he designed the Lexx. He also says that the Divine Assassins, including Kai were under him. But I don't think he says explicitly that he did the original engineering on Kai. :::I'd have to watch Brizon over again to be sure though. :::Den Valdron 02:42, July 5, 2011 (UTC) ::: :::Origin of 790 - I didn't have this when I did the timeline. But in the original version of Rated: Lexx, prepared for the American Sci Fi Channel, 790 remembers his/her human life, or the human life of his/her chunk of brain tissue. 790 was originally a human waitress in a dead end job serving drinks to clerics of the Divine Order. When a young cleric appears to flirt with her, she decides to take the chance and make a play for him in order to better her status, exposing her breasts. Unfortunately, it was actually the older cleric who had actually touched her under the table. The younger cleric turns her in, and she is rendered down for parts on Cluster. This version of Rated: Lexx was not shown on the American Sci Fi Channel which opted to go for a second version. However the original Rated: Lexx was divided into segments and included as extras on a dvd release. :::Den Valdron 07:53, July 5, 2011 (UTC) ::: :::Ah, memory. The name of the human girl who supplies the cube of brain tissue which later becomes the core of 790 is 'Squeeze Pimmel.' Played by a Czech actress whose name I could never track down. Den Valdron 01:23, July 6, 2011 (UTC) ::: ::::Okay, I've added pages and some images for Squeeze Pimmel and B1B, and made some updates to reflect that in 790 and Prison Ship. I had not seen that video segment before, but found it easily on YouTube. -- Bovineone 02:50, July 6, 2011 (UTC) Origin of species This timeline seems to make the assumptions that because humans are found throughout the two Universes, they must have originated on Earth, learn to travel through space to the Light Zone (and subsequently forgot/regressed that ability)? I think the series writers would prefer that humans were spontaneously born on many planets throughout the two Universes, particularly with the Heaven/Hell symbolism and reincarnation. -- Bovineone 15:21, July 4, 2011 (UTC) :No idea what the canon stance is, but I've no idea where the notion of Earth being the source came from, sounds suspiciously like the premise of the Stargate series! I dunno about them spontaneously occurring from a single location either, but if anywhere is supposed to be the source I would have put money on the Brunnen-G since they were known to universe hop. Either way I think it's better just to omit anything on human origins; there's humans in both universes, probably best just to keep it at that =) -- Haravikk 15:25, July 4, 2011 (UTC) : : :Well, I actually talked to the Supreme Beans on a few occasions. We never discussed human origins though. For myself, my own view of human origins is pretty narrow, and has nothing to do with Stargate.. All human beings must originate ultimately from Earth. Convergent evolution or parallel evolution doesn't and can't explain the multitude of fine details - eyebrows, earlobes, nose hairs, fingernails etc. Evolution might produce something humanlike, but won't produce an actual human. Look at it this way - Pterodacyls and Bats, Sharks, Dolphins and Itchysaurs are all products of converging or parallel evolution, the same environment producing similar looking creatures. But you won't ever mistake one for the other. A Kangaroo is actually Marsupial evolution's idea of a Deer, and there's a pronounced resemblance from the shoulders up. So, my thinking way back when, was a single common origin point for humanity, originating in the Dark Zone, spreading to the Light Universe etc. The Brunnen G were just one more offshoot of terrestrial humanity, but not even the only ones in their day. But that's just my take, and I freely admit its non-canonical. I think its appropriate to leave origins of humanity open. : :The Lexx Universe, thinking of it, is decidedly short on aliens. There are only three, maybe four, genuine unquestionably intelligent species: Humans, Insects, the Plant creatures represented by Lyekka and possibly the beings outside time and space. Others like Giggerotta or the Blue Man from IWHS seem to be distortions of humans. The only other thing I can think of is Wist from Eating Pattern, but I think that the Pattern Worm was a designed biological weapon, as I recall. : :The other note I'll make is that the Human Race in either universe is incredibly old. The sequestration of the Brunnen G was at least 10,000 years ago, the insect wars well before that, and presumably for humans to be a contender for the insects.... tens of thousands of more years. :Den Valdron 21:59, July 4, 2011 (UTC) ::Oh no, I fully understand why it wouldn't make scientific sense for the humans to be from multiple sources. What I'm saying though is there's no obvious evidence that the Lexx universe believes Earth to be the source of all humans. If you think about, the Brunnen-G are very clearly a human species, but they had advanced, universe hopping and immortality granting technology more than 2,000 years before Stanley Tweedle was on the Cluster. And, given that the Lexx was in hibernation for 4,000 years before discovering Fire and Water (and subsequently Earth) would put the destruction of Brunnis-2 over 6,000 years before Earth's present day in the series, or around 4,000 BC. ::Given the far advanced status of the Brunnen-G it would make more sense, in the Lexx universe, that humanity originated with them. Firstly because they are likely much older than any other human species in the series, and also because they are the only known human species (excluding Stan and Zev) who have passed between universes, and could therefore account for there being humans in both universes. ::It's worth noting also, that even in the Dark Zone there existed humans more advanced than the inhabitants of Earth, as Claggia is a secondary resource planet to some space-faring civilisation that does not appear to be the Brunnen-G, and also existed as late as 2,000 BC. So some offshoot of humanity clearly exists, beyond Earth, that is far more advanced. If Earth were indeed the origin of the species then it would stand to reason that the civilisation there would be more advanced than other humans, rather than in a steep decline towards self-destruction as described by 790.As it is, by the time the Lexx finds Earth humanity there has only relatively recently developed space-travel, and only local solar exploration, nothing long-ranged enough to get them to other worlds. -- Haravikk 09:27, July 5, 2011 (UTC) :: ::Well, Klaagya (Claggia) (by the way where does that spelling come from?) actually survived till 2008 years after Kai's death and 4000 years before seasons three and four, but its kind of hard to keep track of. But that's neither here nor there. The thing that I wonder about is whether the Earth that we see in Lexx is actually the Earth that we know? It's in the Fire and Water system for one thing, on the opposite side of the solar system from Heaven and Hell. For another, there are clear discrepancies between this Earth and ours, even before Prince gets there, most obviously in the characters of Presidents Davison and Hufferton who seem to have stood in for Bill Clinton. There's also the matter of the Prophecy of the dead man, the red fool, and the lass. And there's Oberon. ::If you want my speculation, and its only wild mass guessing, its not our Earth, its a construct. My logic is as follows: Neither Fire nor Water are natural bodies in the solar system, their physical construction, their operation, their existence defies physics altogether. Now Lexx has always had a pretty loose association with actual physics. But the two worlds pose a metaphysical problem. Basically, they're the fount of reincarnation for the human species in two universes, souls from humans in both universes go there upon death, and then apparently get continually born and reborn as adults stripped of memory. It's established that Fire and Water are places of punishment and reward. That mistakes get made in allocation (the Girls of Girltown should not have been on Fire). And that Prince and Duke are both trapped there and unable to escape. The clear implication is that it is an artificial physical/metaphysical system which has been built by .... someone. ::The series never deals with the artificiality of Fire and Water, at least it doesn't deal with them to the point of asking who built it and why. It appears to be well beyond the limits of known technology in the Dark Zone. ::However, there are three entities, or sets of entities, who seem interested in the Lexx, intervene in this Universe (and the other), and who, for want of a better explanation, seem supernatural or godlike. The first and least of these is the Time Prophet who apparently occupies an 'inconstant moon' and whose span extends across a vast period of time. The Time Prophet reveals the Prophecy to His Shadow, well before the Death of Kai, and appears in five thousand year old memory recordings, but is still around after Kai's escape because Vlad goes to the Time Prophet to find hm. The second is the mysterious 'blue star' which keeps Brunnis Sun from exploding, forces the Lexx to land and talks to our protagonists. And the third are the 'players' outside Time and Space who interrupt the Lexx while it flees and inspires Stanley to fight Mantrid. Are they separate groups or entities, or part of the same? No evidence one way or the other, but my instinct is to relate anomalies. The Light and Dark Zones, and particularly the crew of Lexx are repeatedly manipulated by beings who transcend the limitations of time and space. ::Those strike me as the candidates to have built Fire and Water, imprisoned Prince and Duke and set the whole place operating. ::But set that aside for a second. If we accept that two inhabited planets in this solar system are actually cosmic level metaphysical constructs to gather and house the souls of two universes.... what are the odds that the third planet is natural? I would say practically nil. ::Note that the souls escaping from Fire and Water are drawn towards Earth. Is it just that Earth is the closest human occupied world? Or does this mean that Earth is a failsafe, a kind of built in system default destination? I think you can go either way. But the second approach suggests an artificial world. And of course, Prince only escapes into the universe... to get trapped on Earth. Is this his limitation, or was it designed as a back up cage. ::If Lexx Earth is a construct, it is clearly based on our own Earth, which is intriguing. Why should that be? I think one theory is that our Earth is the original world, and Lexx Earth is a construct in the far away ages, continually re-enacting the origins of humanity every ten thousand years or so on a repeating loop. ::Or if we want to get freaky, perhaps Lexx Earth didn't even exist until Fire and Water were destroyed. Remember all those souls that go there? No one noticed. And actually its a puzzle - Kai refers to Bunny as an archetype, but she seems very close in nature to the Bunny of Water. Brud Parsnip looks like Stan but doesn't seem to be him. On the other hand, expies of Shlemmy and Giggerotta are on this world, and they seem to be clearly derived from their originals. But all the analogues or archetypes or whatever seem to have had complete lives prior to the destruction of Fire and Water. So how do we explain that. Either Lexx Earth and its back history were created or activated as a receptacle for the souls of Fire and Water at the moment of those planets destruction. Or Lexx Earth has always existed parallel to those worlds... and the ghosts or souls, with the exception of Prince and Priest either passed through on the way to somewhere else, or simply vanished into existing bodies and souls without making much of a mark. ::I dunno. The metaphysics of Lexx don't seem to have been thought out very well. ::Den Valdron 15:10, July 5, 2011 (UTC) :::Well the constructed universe theory is certainly an interesting one. But my point was that the origins of humanity in the Lexx universe can't be confirmed by any canon source that I know of, so it's all supposition anyway that wouldn't make sense in a strict canon timeline which I think is what we want for the page here. :::With regards to Fire, Water, and Earth. It's worth noting that Fire and Water were part of an original idea that never made it into series 2. Also, the fact that Fire and Water were in directly opposite orbit to Earth struck me as a fairly obvious mechanism to explain why we, dwelling on Earth, have never witnessed them before, which just seemed to me like a weak reasoning for moving the series to a parody of Earth. The usual kind of "who's to say there isn't a heaven and hell planet on the other side of our sun fighting over a giant planet destroying bug?", heh, I dunno that they're to be taken too literally, or specifically intended to represent anything. I mean, personally I'd be inclined to discount a lot of season 4 as while Lexx never did take itself too seriously, it got pretty silly at the end. My suspicion is that Fire and Water were just a cool idea, and not intended for this kind of scrutiny, as interesting as the questions that it raises are! :::Anyway, I think it's worth keeping main wiki articles as free of far ranging speculation as possible, beyond interesting notes or similarities. We could certainly have articles for broader supposition, linked to whatever we can establish as fact from what we see in the series empirically. :::As for "Klaagya", do you have a source for that? I think our planet "Claggia" was just because that's what happened to be on the original planets article so that's the name we went with, not sure if we have a source on that. -- Haravikk 15:35, July 5, 2011 (UTC) ::: :::I might have a source for Klaagya, but I'll have to spend a bit of time hunting it up. My cast list from the book refers to Lex Gigeroff as 'singing Klaagyan',' but I can't verify where that's from. It might be from the actual movie credits for Eating Pattern. It might appear in production materials or some old scripts I've got laying around, or possibly in the old cinefantastique article. I'll hunt around and get back to you, but can't say when. It's been ten years since I worked on this stuff. ::: :::There was a lot of stuff that fell by the wayside in the plans and outlines for Season Two. An alternate version of Brigadoom, with Pa Golene, Lexxstacy as the musical, Brunnen H, etc. Heaven and Hell appeared as a couple of very sketchy paragraphs (and a handwritten note) in the June 28, 2006, story synopsis/scripts in development brochure as episodes 12 and 13. There's very little resemblance to the way that the Fire and Water season or worlds turned out, its more classical heaven, St. Peter shows up, and the Lexx ends up shooting and killing God. Heaven and Hell didn't appear in the mid-2007 synopisis/brochure or the late 2007 episode list. :::Den Valdron 16:53, July 5, 2011 (UTC) ::::I questioned the spelling on Talk:Claggia, even though I was the first to create that page. I'm pretty sure I was just creating a page that was referenced (ie: "red-linked") by someone else. -- Bovineone 19:05, July 5, 2011 (UTC) :::: ::::Just for the heck of it, you might want to try googling Klaagya and Claggia. Claggia seems to only turn up a handful of hits, relating back the Wikki. Klaagya shows up thousands of times. I scrolled through looking for an official site, no luck, but Klaagya does appear to be the generally adopted spelling, going back at least a dozen years. ::::Den Valdron 19:39, July 5, 2011 (UTC)